Followup Post with reader’s comments is here
YEP! Yarn shops are notorious for snubbing crocheters. Books that contain both knit and crochet are dominated by knit. Many ready to wear items that are crocheted are marketed as knitted. There are references to machine crochet when crochet cannot be done by machines – but knitting can! Crochet is mis-identified as knit all over the place.
There is an ironic twist to the attitude of many yarn shop owners. Since it is widely accepted that crochet uses more yarn than knitting, why would shop owners not see us as cash cows and cater to us? Well, typically, we are unwilling to spend as much on yarn for a single item than knitters are. After all, if it will take 6 months to knit a fair isle sweater, I might not quibble about spending the $100 on yarn for it. (Not!) But, in that 6 months, I can pretty much guarantee that I’ll spend $100 on yarn – but it will cover numerous projects, including several babyghans, some scarves, a full sized afghan, and maybe a sweater. So, why the problem for shop owners?
What I would really LOVE to see is a local yarn shop that carried a wide selection of acrylic yarns in moderate price ranges (like Red Heart) in addition to the higher end stuff. Actually, there is such a store in the St. Louis area, but they cater to other crafts too, so their yarn selection is limited in preference for needlepoint, etc. Not a bad thing, but I’m only interested in crocheting. I mean, can you really create a beauty like this with knit?
(Free Pattern from http://www.crochetstyleetc.com/index.htm)
I guess knitting is older than crochet. I think both began as manly arts rather than being in the domain of women. Knot tying was crucial for seamen and other tradesmen. Of course, weaving brought us the very first ‘computer’ in the form of the jacquard loom, the first device to use an automated binary system. So maybe both knitting and crochet are the stepchildren of weaving.
I find crochet to be such a soothing endeavor that I can’t understand why all needlearts lovers aren’t as in love with crochet as I am. Of course, knitters must carry a crochet hook in their kits because hooks are required to repair mistakes like dropped stitches and many edgings require crochet. We crocheters have no need to carry a knitting needle with us – unless we want a really large one for broomstick.
In the present resurgence of all needlearts, it’s really nice to see more crochet books in print. I can only hope that the buzz for knitting created by books like Stitch and Bitch Nation will be met with an equally exciting book for crocheters. There are some very exciting – to me – new crochet books, including one by Debbie Stoller of SnB fame. But, crochet magazines come and go with such sad regularity that I find myself hesitant to get attached to any of them. Once I find one I can’t live without like the refurbished Crochet Fantasy, it disappears.
So, let’s join hands, click hooks together, and demand our rightful place at yarn shops around the country. Don’t be put off by snobby yarn shop owners and employees. Persist! Try out some pricey yarns. Ask for new crochet books by name. Demand guild discounts. We can get this stepchild legitimized, even if it’s by adoption!
Yes, I agree that knitters feel a little “superior” in that they can manipulate 2 needles at once, and keep their yarn tension at the same time. 🙂 I recently attended a local knitting school and when I said I’d rather crochet, it was like I had uttered the ultimate obscenity. It was referred to later as the “c-word”. There are some items that might be better knitted, (socks) but crochet is more relaxing to me anyway.
Enjoy your site, great place to speak my mind (what there is left of it after 65 years!)
Anita in E’ville
The book thing is tough for me. There’s always internet, of course, but it’s rare that I’ll make a special trip to a bookstore to find a new release or a current magazine. If I’m in the yarn shop already I’m apt to add a cute book to my purchase. Sad that my local has just stopped carrying magazines.
What I would really LOVE to see is a local yarn shop that carried a wide selection of acrylic yarns in moderate price ranges (like Red Heart) in addition to the higher end stuff.
Sorry, but I don’t think this makes any sense. When it comes to pricing, the local yarn stores simply cannot compete with Wal-Mart and the big-box craft stores on selling cheap acrylics. Economies of scale. They just can’t. The only way the local yarn stores can keep afloat is if they offer something different – the high-quality natural-fibre yarns that you can’t get in Wal-Mart. If crocheters simply won’t buy high-quality natural-fibre yarns, then the local yarn stores are going to assume that there’s no point trying to court the crochet market, and who can blame them? More later, but I have to go out in the sun…
Lots of good comments. Thanks for taking the time to comment on the blog. Fernmonkey is right about LYS not being able to beat the big box stores at their own game by pricing RH and similar yarns competitively. I should have better stated it this way – there are lots of yarns between RH and the very pricey yarns – lots of Paton yarns for instance. It would be nice to see more of these at the LYS mixed in with their scrumptious offerings that are often upwards of $20 a skein.
Another person emailed me privately about my usage of ‘red-headed’ and stepchild, stating that I was slighting both. I was not. The use of both terms – and the phrase red-headed stepchild – is exactly the opposite. The point is that neither should be slighted. I’m a stepchild and I know how that can sometimes feel. Please don’t think I would ever use anyone’s appearance or family status to hurt them. That was certainly not my intent.
jd
JD,
We have a store here in Seattle that carries a lot of the Patons yarns, and even some Red Heart. The Red Heart prices of course aren’t competitive, but the Patons are and I think they do pretty well with them. I first saw the Patons Soy Silk yarn there…mmmmm!
I hear you about crochet being called knitting and vice versa. I was just looking at the Coldwater Creek website, and there are a couple lacy knitted sweaters that are called “crocheted”. I think these mistakes come from people who don’t do either. Some of them might think that crochet is a type of knit (I’ve even seen references to “crochet knit” a few times.) Others know about crochet, but think it refers to any lacy item made with yarn or thread, so they refer to a knitted lacy item as “crocheted”.
Somehow I don’t get as annoyed with this because it just shows a lack of knowledge of how the two crafts are done and that there is a difference between the two. (The same would go to references to “machine crochet”.)
What I hate is when actual knitters and yarn store owners downgrade crochet, or say that a particular item is ugly because it’s crocheted (rather than saying it’s poorly designed, poorly made, the wrong yarn was used, the color was unattractive, it doesn’t fit the person wearing it, or whatever.) If the item was knitted and ugly, they’d use one of these other reasons (or many others that I can’t think of right now.) But if it’s a crocheted item, they say that the fact that it’s crocheted makes it ugly.
Really nice article about crochet! I agree, and I also think that designers need to update crocheted patterns so that they use nicer yarns (that won’t break the bank) and that are also fashionable. The new SnB Crochet book is a step in the right direction…. (I do both, and I have to say that knitters do envy crocheters for our speedy projects and the versatility we have… I’m now trying to translate some cute crochet patterns for knitting and it’s not nearly as fun and the final project doesn’t look nearly as cool!)
I agree with Katie about the updating. More shaping and less box-shaped garments–knitting has gone that way in the last 5 years or so, but crochet has lagged behind. The thing is, heavier yarns and boxier shapes look worse in crochet than in knitting because crochet is heavier than knitting. Crochet really looks the best, especially for clothing, if done in yarns finer than worsted weight, but there are still a lot of bulky and chunky-weight garment patterns in crochet. Then if the sweater ends up looking bulky and unflattering, people think that crochet doesn’t work for adult clothing, and that it’s only for afghans and household items.
(But they think it’s OK for baby garments for some reason–maybe because there isn’t as much shaping needed in those. And of course a lot of baby garments are made in thinner yarns, so they are drapier. But there’s no reason that crocheted sweaters can’t be made to flatter people that are older than age 5!)
I’m back, and it’s a quiet day in the office, so here are more opinions. I don’t think all of them will be popular though!
First of all, I should point out that I’m referring to yarn crochet rather than thread crochet throughout. This is simply because most crocheters who get involved in the “crochet v knit” rivalry are talking about yarn crochet only, and in fact can be quite nasty about thread crochet (“crochet – it’s not just a load of old doilies!”). Truth be told, I think that many yarn crocheters are as dismissive of thread crochet as knitters can be of crochet, but that’s a topic for another post. While thread crochet is relatively young compared to knitting (there’s no evidence of crochet before the 1800s), yarn crochet is an even newer form, originating in the post-WWII period. This doesn’t make yarn crochet any less legitimate as an art form – think of polymer clay, electronic music and digital graphics – but it does mean that there is very little historical tradition of wearing clothing which is entirely crocheted from yarn, as opposed to woven clothing (weaving is indeed much older than knitting) or knitted clothing. This means that people (especially male people) often have a very specific set of aesthetic expectations for the textural surfaces of their clothing – they must be of a smooth texture, a woven texture or a stockinette texture, because that is ‘familiar’ and ‘customary’. Crochet confounds these expectations. Crocheters tend to get terribly offended at the idea of putting crochet borders and edgings on knitted garments, but the aesthetic principle behind this is pretty sound – ‘familiar’ stockinette stitch provides a neutral background for the elaborate crocheted edgings, drawing the eye to things like the neckline and hands (and away from the belly and butt) and preventing the ‘busyness’ that could result from a strongly textured crochet stitch being used throughout. I’m baffled as to how the use of crochet as as the visual highlight on a piece of knitwear is an insult to crochet, I have to say.
The time when yarn-crochet clothing was most infamously fashionable was the 1970s, and I think that this has been a problem with the perception of crochet ever since. Many 1970s fashions are not considered particularly attractive today (unlike, say, 1920s ‘flapper’ fashions or the very tailored 1940s fashions of wartime) and thus the popular conception of crochet clothing became the green-and-brown-and-orange granny-square waistcoat, in unpleasant synthetic fibres (acrylic technology has improved since then). I should point out here that I’m not knocking granny squares per se – I think that they’re a sound way to make a blanket, given a quality washable yarn and a thoughtful choice of colours – but I don’t think they ever worked too well as wearables.
The resurgence of knitting (I’m going to call it the New American Knitting, because it happened in the US first) had a lot to do with Debbie Stoller’s Stitch & Bitch books, the first two of which were about knitting. I don’t have any proof of this, but I actually think that if Stoller had started out writing books about crochet, then it could have been the other way round, and I could have been commenting on a blog post entitled “Is Knitting the Red-Headed Stepchild of Crochet?”. Most yarnworkers seem to start out by churning out large numbers of scarves, beanies, dishcloths and wristwarmers – and for projects of this type you’ll get pretty much equivalent results whether you knit or crochet, especially in the fluffy stitch-obscuring novelty yarns that seem to appeal to many novices.
I should also point out here that the stylish knitting/dowdy crochet prejudice only exists within the yarnworking community, and in my experience it’s primarily within the New American Knitting community. Everyone else sees it all as this lame girlie hobby with yarn. If you don’t believe me, think of the way that everyone in the Harry Potter books reacts to knitted items with amusement, scorn or disdain. Think of the way everyone cracks jokes about getting a “hideous hand-knit holiday sweater”. The salmon may think himself mighty superior to the trout, but to everyone else, they’re both fish.
jd wolfe said: There are references to machine crochet when crochet cannot be done by machines – but knitting can!
I’ve been hearing crocheters say this for a very long time, and it confuses me, because a brief Google search shows dozens of (mostly Chinese) manufacturers of “crochet machines”. You can see some examples here: http://www.b2bchinasources.com/China-Manufacturers-58/Crochet-Machines.html Now, I don’t know very much about industrial textile production so I don’t know if these machines actually produce a woven or knit fabric that looks like crochet, but I don’t really think that one can look at all those listings and say that “crochet (or at least crochet-looking) textiles can’t be made by machine”.
Norah said: But they think it’s OK for baby garments for some reason–maybe because there isn’t as much shaping needed in those.
This applies both to knit and crochet of course – even Debbie Bliss, a very eminent knitting designer, uses drop shoulders and boxy cuts for babywear. I think it’s because babies simply aren’t expected to wear figure-flattering shapely clothes. Babies don’t have day jobs or boyfriends, they wear diapers which are going to mess with any attempt at shaping whatsoever, and they don’t care about the armpit bulges that you get with drop sleeves. Also, tiny little set-in sleeves provide less scope for fun textures or colourwork than tiny little drop-shoulders.
Crochet really looks the best, especially for clothing, if done in yarns finer than worsted weight, but there are still a lot of bulky and chunky-weight garment patterns in crochet.
Totally agree on this, and I also think that the same is true for knitting, although to a lesser degree. Sweaters made up in bulky chunky yarn, whichever technique you use, do a great job of making the wearer look bulky and chunky. The problem is that yarnworkers like to see fast results, especially novices whose stitching rate is slow. It’s much easier to sell a n00b crocheter on a garment made out of Funky Chunky where you can see progress in minutes (check this out http://www.amazon.com/Quick-Crochet-Hooks-Sally-Harding/dp/1571203125 for example), than it is to get them to do something in Skinny Minnie where you’ve been hooking away faithfully for an hour and you’ve still only got an inch or so of tiny, perfect stitches. Using thin yarn tends to go against one of the main reasons that many people favour crochet over knitting, namely that crochet works up much faster (at least, it does for most people, including me). I think that people have to realise that there’s no shortcut – you can have quick’n’easy crochet, or you can have beautiful flattering crochet. If you want results as stunning as Raspberry Fizz or the Adventuring Sage Cable Vest (and I know the latter won’t please everyone style-wise, but the workmanship is fantastic, and those are the only crochet cables I’ve seen ANYWHERE that didn’t look like ass), you have to put in some work.
This leads me to another issue that I’ve noticed with yarn crochet. I think that yarn crocheters may be less likely to develop their skills to a high and sophisticated level than knitters, and less likely to use good yarn. If knitters who produce socks and sweaters in quality natural yarns only ever see crocheters who never make anything other than scarves and blankets, and never use anything other than the cheapest of acrylics, and who extol the superiority of crochet over knitting at the same time as only ever churning out scarves and blankets in the cheapest of acrylics, then they’re going to assume that yarn crochet is good for nothing more than acrylic scarves and blankets. (I use “the cheapest of acrylics” advisedly. Many of us make items which must be machine-washable to be useful – such as anything that will ever adorn a baby – and all of us have bills to pay. But there are nicer acrylics out there than Red Heart Super Saver, there are nice acrylic-cotton or acrylic-wool blends, there are superwash wools, and there are excellent-value natural-fibre yarns from elann, WEBS, Knitpicks and eBay.)
Basically, the only people who can improve crochet’s image are us crocheters. If you want knitting-oriented yarn stores to take crochet seriously, you yourself are going to have to ask them if you can order crochet books and magazines from them, ask them if they’d consider stocking a wider range of hooks, buy yarn from them and chat about what you’re going to crochet from it, and generally show them that the crochet dollar is there for the taking, and that crocheters don’t just use Wal-Mart yarn and free online patterns. What’s more, if you want to show people that crochet is capable of producing beautiful clothing, you yourself are going to have to crochet beautiful clothing, and wear it. I know that this is what you have to do because I’ve done it myself, and elicited reactions of “Wow, I didn’t know crochet could look like that!” And it might mean that you have to splash out a little on better yarn (and if you value your crochet, don’t you want to show off your beautiful stitches in a beautiful yarn?), and it might mean that you have to persevere with thinner yarns and complex shaping, and it might mean that you have to work on the boring parts like swatching and making-up and blocking (unblocked crochet almost brings tears to my eyes, there is no better way to ruin lovely work), but nobody ever said that crocheting something worth wearing would be easy, and it’s a much better use of your time and energy than pissing and moaning about those elitist meaniepants knitters. And if you go to the S&B wearing Raspberry Fizz, or Kathy Merrick’s cardigan in Interweave Crochet and the knitters still snub you, then it just goes to show that some people are so blinkered and prejudiced that you wouldn’t want them to accept you.
What Fernmonkey said!
As the knitting gossip blogger I thought I would chime in with my $1.98 opinion.
I would never degrade a crocheter. I will not support a LYS that looks down at crocheters. I started crocheting before I learned to knit. I taught myself how to crochet because it was easy to follow the directions in the book I had. I learned continental (or German) knitting from a wonderful teacher 30 years ago. In case you don’t know, continental knitters hold their yarn like crocheters – in the left hand. We call ourselves “pickers” as opposed to “throwers” (American style knitters) and have been ostracized for many, many years and were not acknowledged as “real†knitters. But, if you look on the web now, we are starting to come into our own and many LYS are starting to teach this method and we coming out of the closet, LOL
Now to my point, LYS fill niches and need to make money. The one I learned at many years ago filled the needs of crocheters and knitters. They had teachers for both type of crafters, however, there really wasn’t much out there for crocheters at that time in the line of patterns.
Crochet is not as smooth as a knit piece; it was always open, flirty and not durable like a knit piece. I firmly believe that is why most people prefer to knit because they see it as creating a “serviceable†item (socks sweaters, etc), not a “dressy†item. Remember, most of our ancestors in this country were farmers and needed serviceable clothing. Crochet was something you put on pillowcases.
But, if you look at newer designs using the afghan hook, which is not a new technique, or “Tunisian†cable crochet hooks, I think you will see that crochet clothing designs will start to get away from the “filmy†type of clothing, not that I dislike the open, airiness of crochet. It definitely has its place in clothing design.
Everything in the needle arts world is cyclic. Needlepoint, tatting and candlewicking were very popular at one time.
I do believe if crocheters started a grass roots type of movement, calling attention to themselves and demanding more crochet-type designs and patterns, more LYS will jump on the bandwagon again. Crochet needs the type of promoting that knitting has received lately. It hasn’t always been popular. Many times I was asked not to bring my knitting to the PTA meetings!
Look what the Yarn Harlot and Debbie Stoller did for knitting – they brought it back. Look at people like Elizabeth Zimmerman – she was labeled a kook when she first started creating non-patterns and using the percentage system to design. And many of her patterns are boxy, like the Bog Jacket design. Every change needs time to become the vogue.
Crocheters need to demand new designs using appropriate yarns and design techniques like proper shaping. Now is the time for crocheters to get on their soapbox and say “Look at me. I can design and create beauty with yarn alsoâ€.
LAURA WROTE:
Many times I was asked not to bring my knitting to the PTA meetings!
THIS IS ASTOUNDING! altho’ I don’t doubt Laura for a moment. I started taking my crochet to my 12 step meetings about 8 yrs ago. Now, I am identified as the ‘gal who crochets (or knits which I don’t do)’ at meetings. Years ago, when I asked a person leading a meeting about my crochet, she said ‘Do what you want. It’s YOUR meeting.’ Great insight. I will also add that since I have ADD, I find that I retain much more information from the meetings when my hands are occupied with crocheting. Otherwise, I just fidget the whole time.
jd
JD Wrote
THIS IS ASTOUNDING
This happened before crafters were everywhere. Remember in my post I said I learned to knit 30 years ago? Well, 30 years ago people were not very receptive to the idea of knitting at meetings and well, the PTA president was not a crafter.
Thank goodness the world has evolved, somewhat.
I crochet and knit. However I prefer to crochet because it goes quicker. I can make something in half the time that it takes to knit the same thing. The only downside is that to crochet something it take a bit more yarn than if I was knitting it. However one of the pluses that I like is that you can pick up your work where you left off and do not have to worry about dropped stitches.
Very interesting posts.
I wonder if any one will comment on the news that walmart is closing their yarn department in many areas.
So if the less expensive yarns are no longer available locally where will crocheters get their stash? Will they necessarily turn to higher quality materials. Will internet shopping become the rule?
ALIDA BRINGS UP A SUBJECT THAT HAS been widely discussed on some crochet discussion boards online. Apparently not all Walmarts are closing their yarn departments – but many are and others are downsizing the crafts in general, apparently in preference for a party supply area. As one who is NOT a fan of Walmart in general, this news will not affect my stash. But, in many areas, crocheters and knitters have no other local source for yarn or thread. I hope that small town America will be revitalized by having some resourceful yarn lovers open LYS in their areas to fill the vacuum that Walmart’s decision will create. After all, it was Walmart that put the LYS and other smaller stores out of business in the first place.
jd
HELLO EVERYONE! JUST FOUND YOU ON MY “PUTER”, SPEAKING FOR BETTER YARNS AT A GOOD PRICE, HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN THE KNITWIT CATALOG? THEY’RE ALSO ON THE WEB- THEIR YARNS ARE BEAUTIFUL AND I THINK THEY’RE REASONABLE I ALSO BUY “CHEAP” YARNS, BUT FOR SOMETHING SPECIAL I THINK THEY’RE WORTH IT.
Katie,
you’re right – there are some great deals in the knitwit catalog. But, RH and similar yarns are also great for all kinds of projects. It’s great that in the US we have such a wide variety of choices in yarns.
jd
i did not realize there was such a prejudice against crocheters until i took my 13 year old daughter to a yarn shop to buy her a few nice yarns for her stash ( to encourage her,she is teaching herself)
when inquiring about classes for her,the shop ladies asked if i was joining the classes with her. i said ‘no, i crochet’.everyone stopped and stared. ‘well’,said the lady, ‘if you took the classes you would be a knitter’.i was a really annoyed.i couldn’t really see where it made a difference! what the heck could i learn…or make, with knitting that i could not do with crochet? socks? shawls,sweaters,afghans? all could be made with both knitting and crochet.what was the meaning of this bias? it still surprises me,and i think it is really silly.as always,it is the nature of people to EXclude,not INclude.because of this silliness,i almost stubbornly refused to learn to knit.but my daughter,needing help learning how to purl,fixed MY own silliness.i immediately picked up her ‘kids knitting’ book and began trying to learn to knit.
we will learn how to do them all ( she wants to try quilting and rug making,next ).you have only to look at one ‘needle crafts’ book to know it is ALL valid, beautiful and worthwhile.
tamara,
sorry that you and your daughter had this sad, but all too frequent, experience at your LYS. but, better that you will triumph over it with a positive attitude that your daughter will imitate! good for you! i never understand the crocheters who write ‘kn**’ when they mean knit. it’s NOT a cuss word. LOL.
jd
…and it seems to me that needlepointers look down on both knitters and crocheters. Just my unimportant observation. 🙂
WELL – PHOOEY ON THEM! I have no time for snobs. Life’s too short. Let’s all enjoy our addictions, ah, crafts, and respect those of others. jd
This is so funny – I am always telling my non-crafty friends “IT’S NOT KNITTING!!!” People who aren’t either a knitter or crocheter (I do both, but strongly prefer crochet) just don’t get it.
I was on your side until you said Red Heart. That is nasty, scratchy stuff. And I do spend $ on yarn for crocheting, and I patronize a yarn store that has a sign in the window that it is crochet friendly!
I really don’t understand why a person wouldn’t want to learn how to knit -and- crochet, simply because they are both skills our ancestors possessed and we should all do our best to keep them alive and well. All of the snobbery is so immature. It’s like not liking painting, but liking drawing. Both have their places, both are valuable talents/skills. One isn’t better than the other, just different. Isn’t that the case with most things?
I don’t really get all the yarn snobbery either. It’s a matter of choice. While one person may not like Red Heart, another may love it. Perhaps it’s a matter of cost or convenience. I’ve used it for most of my 71 years and I have always found it to be a great value and just as nice as most yarn costing 3 times as much. It’s never been a problem and it’s been around longer than most of you. Best of all, the items last forever with minimal care.
My library of knit and crochet books is extensive and littered with reference books, knitting books, crocheting books and books on simple and complex techniques. There are so many ways to do things. Since these things are forms of art that combine skill and technique, why not pull together and respect whichever talent and choice others make? After all, we are simply creative people in the end.